Indian Larry

Joined

• started 32 topics
• posted 335 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Indian Larry

• 
  37

  Whats the most damning of the July 15 2013 changes?

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a lot of the rank and file at the meetings seem to think some of the changes make more sense but what is the most damning of the changes that may help to wake to some up.

  some thing the rank and file will not first see or understand as a big deal?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  BTT
• 
  31

  A QUESTION NOBODY EVER ASKS....

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what is the difference between working a math problem and, say...playing a piano piece?.

  the math problem has a correct answer.

  getting close to the correct answer is simply called being wrong.. music, on the other hand, can have a wide range of expression not easily judged to be "wrong".

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  In a way couldn't it be said that Cain and Able each gave god gifts? Apparently one was not acceptable.
• 
  63

  I am a Human Apostate, and so are YOU (YOUTUBE)

  by Watchtower-Free in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dbfc4rclay&nr=1&feature=endscreen.

  her blog.

  http://jehovahs-witness-cult-control.blogspot.com/.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  Apostate Chick - Thanks for this video. I am going to insist that my wife and child view it before they go to the assembly. It is an excellent idea to put a "face" on the "evil apostates". Well done video and good points made. Thank you.
• 
  134

  Gerrit Loesch was at our DC today!

  by goatshapeddemon in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so, unexpectedly, the final talk was announced today and to my surprise and evil glee, they announced gerrit loesch as the speaker!

  first off, at the beginning of his talk, he interrupted himself in the middle of his sentence to scold the microphone brother to lower my mike it's right in my face.. anyway, it was the talk on inspired truth, vs. inspired falsehoods.

  he went through 6 expressions inspired by the demons.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  With no audio it may as well not have happened. Too bad, I would have LOVED to have proof of that.
• 
  16

  How to End “the Silent Treatment” ~ Wha?

  by enigma1863 in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  the irony is so thick you can cut a knife with it.

  the watchtower must have some real cognitive dissonance.

  read it for your self:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  I laughed out loud.
• 
  3

  Something I put together for a friend.

  by Indian Larry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  for false christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.

  with a clear warning like watch out; i have told you all things beforehand we need to be sure if we are going to tell people that jesus is invisibly present that we know exactly what we are teaching.

  for false christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  In the first century Christ Jesus knew what would happen after he was gone. He knew that there would be those who would claim that he had returned when he had not. To help his followers avoid being led astray by false prophets he gave this very clear warning in Matthew 24:23-28.

  “ Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned YOU. Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

  The language could not be plainer. Jesus is warning us that false teachers may talk of a "secret" coming, in other words an invisible presence, but he tells us “do not believe it.” He then goes on to say that his presence will be like highly visible, like lightning from one side of the sky to the other. That is something that is not missed. Everyone sees lightning as it arc’s across the sky, not just one or two people. However, knowing that there would be false prophets that would try to mislead his followers, Jesus had recorded additional direct statements about the visibility of his presence. This is recorded just after his ascent to heaven in Acts 1:9-11

  “ And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, and they said: “Men of Gal′i·lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”

  So in this scripture we find a description of Jesus ascending literally, bodily, in full view of His watching, awestruck followers. Two angels appeared and said He would come back "in like manner" as He went up. This certainly makes it seem that Christ's Second Coming will be literal, bodily, and visible to normal human eyes. Whether or not his second coming will or will not be visible is for another research project, either way he reiterates the same warning again about those who say he as returned, when he has not. In the book of Mark. In Chapter 13:21-23 we read:

  “ Then, too, if anyone says to YOU, ‘See! Here is the Christ,’ ‘See! There he is,’ do not believe [it]. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones. YOU, then, watch out; I have told YOU all things beforehand.

  With a clear warning like “watch out; I have told YOU all things beforehand” we need to be SURE if we are going to tell people that Jesus is invisibly present that we know exactly what we are teaching. We would never ever want to be like those Jesus described that are saying he is present when he is not, regardless of how good our intentions are.

  What about 1914? Are we teaching that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914? Is that true? There is a massive mountain of evidence that says that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/7 BCE and NOT in 607 BCE as we have been taught. In addition to overwhelming archeological and historical evidence that disproves 1914, there is other evidence that, to my mind should certainly make anyone think twice before saying Jesus came invisibly in 1914. This evidence is from the highest source in the universe, Jehovah God himself. In the book of Jeremiah, Chapter 25 verse 12, Jehovah speaks specifically about when the 70 years would be over:

  “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de′ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.

  This clearly states that when the 70 years have been COMPLETED that Jehovah would call the king of Babylon to account. That is pretty clear.

  Jehovah used “his servant” Cyrus the Great to overthrow Babylon in 539 B.C.E. There is no question about this date, it is considered a pivotal date in history, agreed to by both the society and historians. The problem is that if you use this date then the calculation for the end of the Gentile times then you do NOT get 1914. For that reason, in contrast with the bible the governing body teaches us that the 70 years ended in 537 BCE, at least 2 years after it was possible for what Jehovah said to be true.

  In other words to believe the 1914 chronology you have to disregard a HUGE mountain of evidence from thousands of independent business records, astronomical records and historical records, and what is even worse you have to disregard “the utterance of Jehovah”. Ironically you can disprove 1914 JUST using the societies literature and the dates they give there.

  Can we be that sure about 1914? Is it possible that the governing body in teaching that Jesus is invisibly present is guilty of false prophecy? Would they do that? They have in the past.

  Starting in 1879 For over 50 years they falsely advertised that Jesus had been invisibly present since 1874. Here is just a small sample of hundreds of times that the society has asserted that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874.

  “ Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874 .... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)

  “ Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874, A. D. according to the testimony of the prophets, to those who have ears to hear it… (The Battle of Armageddon) 1912 ed., p. 621

  “ Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy shows beyond a doubt that he did appear in 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and these facts are indisputable.

  All true watchers are familiar with these facts as set forth in the Scriptures and explained in the interpretation by the Lord's special servant. The Watchtower, November 1, 1922, pp.332-337

  Notice how this Christ’s appearance in 1874 is asserted as an indisputable fact. Then they say that all true watchers are familiar with these facts, implying that if you don’t agree you are not truly watching bible prophecy.

  The next quote basically is saying if you don’t believe that Jesus has been present since 1874 you are not a “truly consecrated child of God’.

  “ Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874. " (Watchtower, Jan. 1,1924, p. 5)

  “ The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D. This proof is specifically [spelled] out in the booklet entitled Our Lord's Return. (Prophecy p.65-66 1926)

  Even as late as 1930 they continued to falsely teach that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874.

  “ … from the beginning of the Lord’s presence in 1874 the Devil used the Papal system as the chief opposing instrument of God’s kingdom …" Watchtower 1930 p.275

  It was not until 1943 that they officially decided that Jesus presence had started in 1914. So for over 50 years they falsely claimed that Christ had returned when he had not. In addition this means that it was years AFTER Jesus actual return before they realized it.

  “ In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book "The Truth Shall Make You Free." This moved forward the end of six thousand years of man's existence into the decade of the 1970's. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia. Page 324 of the above book positively says: "The King's presence or parousia began in 1914."" God's Kingdom on a Thousand Years Has Approached p.209

  After reviewing just a small sample of the dozens and dozens of times they insisted that Christ had been invisibly present in 1874, I think it is good review Matthew 24:23-28 one more time:

  “ Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. Look! I have forewarned YOU. Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it . For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

  And Mark 13:21 once again:

  “ Then, too, if anyone says to YOU, ‘See! Here is the Christ,’ ‘See! There he is,’ do not believe [it]. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones. YOU, then, watch out; I have told YOU all things beforehand

  Jesus Christ here clearly warns his followers “do not believe it” when someone falsely claims he is present. He goes on to identify them as “false Christs” and false prophets. What do those terms mean? According to the insight book the word prophet refers to someone who is a spokesman for God.

  “ Although the etymology of the Hebrew term for a prophet (na·vi'′) is uncertain, the use of this distinctive term shows that true prophets were no ordinary announcers but were spokesmen for God, ‘men of God’ with inspired messages. (1Ki 12:22; 2Ki 4:9; 23:17) They stood in God’s “intimate group,” and he revealed his “confidential matter” to them. (it-2 p. 694 Prophet)

  From the very first issue of the Watchtower the Watchtower society has certainly claimed to fit that definition of prophet. What about Christ? What did that mean to the organization in the early 1900‘s According to Rutherford (who we believe was the faithful slave of his time) the word Christ meant anointed:

  “ The word Christ signifies anointed. Anointing means designation to official position in God’s arrangement. The Christ is the instrument or channel for the blessing of mankind. The Christ is composed of Jesus the great and mighty head, and 144,000 members.” – The Harp of God, 1921, p 187

  So, in short they definitely do fit at least part of the definition. Not only that, but you catch the last part of that quote! Rutherford here is saying that The Christ is not just Jesus but Jesus AND the 144,000. Kind of like a composite Christ with him as part of it. Not too much ego on his part.

  This is in harmony what he wrote in Millions Now Living will Never Die where he directly says that “the great Messiah” is made up of Jesus and his glorified church.

  “ Messiah’s kingdom once established, Jesus and his glorified church constituting the

  great Messiah, shall minister the blessing to the people they have so long desired and hoped for and prayed might come” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 88)

  Is this really how a faithful and wise servant would talk? Is this humble. To say that he and his followers are on the same level as Christ . . . . and at the same time falsely teaching that Christ had returned when he had not. Is that being faithful and discreet or is it more like someone who is a false Christ (anointed) and a false prophet (spokesman for god)?
• 
  122

  Suspicious

  by Suspicious in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i guess i'm new here.

  born in and an ms. things just hasn't been making sense the more i think about it.

  i'm starting to get suspicious.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  As others have said, you are in for a rough ride. In my opinion one of the worse problems with the WTBTS is the constant repetition that they are God's sole channel of communication. This leads most witnesses to be unable to distinguish between faith in man and faith in God. What happens then is when you find out that the are nothing but a bunch of liars shooting from their hips with change after change in doctrine, you lose your faith in them and in God. If you are interested in keeping your faith in God and just dropping the BORG then I would reccomend listening to a podcast called "Resonable Faith" with William Lane Craig. I would also reccomend Ravi Zaccarius. They are both Christian apologists who try to answer some of the tougher questions relating to belief in God. They are not nessesarily preachers but more apologists.

  If you don't know if you want to believe in God or not I would highly reccomend the podcast called "Unbelievable". Every week they have a Christian and a Athiest discuss various questions. The nice thing about it, is that they do get into the differences but they don't attack each other and do name calling etc. It is nice to hear people with diametrically differing viewpoints have rational discussions.

  Finally like many others I would highly reccomend Crisis of Consceince, in addition I would also reccomend (after Crisis) reading In Search of Christian Freedom.

  Good luck on your journey. It will not be easy. Also when you start learning stuff and you think you want to share with others . . . stop . . . step back and think again. The organization is wrong. There is no question about that. However you may have to decide what is more important to you being right or having friends, a wife, being able to talk with your children etc. I personally did a long long slooooooooww fade and it has worked well for me.

  "
• 
  40

  Do any of you know of a religion that does not believe in the Trinoity?

  by orbison11 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have such internal conflict on the trinity,,,i do not believe it,,,i dont know if it is jw brainwashing.

  or if logically thinking applies here.

  help :).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  This is a christian church that does not belive in the trinity. I find him very interesting to listen to. (You can download old radio shows on .mp3) or read the article on the attached link:

  http://www.21stcr.org/multimedia-2011/1-articles/sf-trinity_defined_refuted.html
• 
  47

  Is the U.S. headed toward financial ruin? Your opinions please....

  by tresdecu in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  not trying to sound like a conpiracy nut...but just read this article:.

  http://www.moneynews.com/archives/trump-aftershock-american-economy/2012/11/06/id/462985?promo_code=103fc-1.

  is this just a lot of talk?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  I just did a "Google" search: "Is Moneynews.com slanted?"

  One of the first results:
  
  They specialize in spam. If you subscribe, you will get several messages each day from them and other "partners" who would just love for you to subscribe to their service for a fee. Furthermore, any news they do send you is slanted towards the tea party and reads more like propaganda than news. If you tell them to stop spamming you, they ignore you and send you more. This company is associated with MoneyNews.com and AfterShock.

  Basically they are fear mongering for profit . . . . sound like any other corporation you might be familier with?
• 
  47

  Is the U.S. headed toward financial ruin? Your opinions please....

  by tresdecu in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  not trying to sound like a conpiracy nut...but just read this article:.

  http://www.moneynews.com/archives/trump-aftershock-american-economy/2012/11/06/id/462985?promo_code=103fc-1.

  is this just a lot of talk?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  Once I got away from all the doom and gloom the Watchtower pumped into my mind every week, the last thing in the world I want is to let someone else do the same thing. The FACT is this. No one knows the future, it is that simple. Remember, economists have accurately predicted 12 of the previous 4 recessions. The best thing I can do for my mental health is stay away from that crap, stay out of personal debt and get on with my life. Just my 2 cents worth.